- So, I'm really excited to hear from our panel. But, I wanted to spend a few minutes discussing the concept of intersectionality. As many of you know, Kimberly Williams Crenshaw coined the term "Intersectionality." But she also said once that, and I quote, "Intersectionality is an analytic sensibility "A way of thinking about identity, "and its relationship to power. "Originally articulated on behalf of Black women, "the term brought to light the invisibility "of many constituents within groups that claim them "as members, but often fail to represent them." End quote. The meaning behind this quote is all too common in the disability community. And there has been a sense of feeling overlooked, and a continued need to, for advocacy. In my role, I've often noticed while working with partners, that I must continuously remind them that people with disabilities are not all the same. Everyone's ability, or disability, effects them differently. And we must not ignore their other intersecting identities. There are so many ways to approach intersectionality. But we choose to focus on the working environment for this particular discussion. We offer this session today as part of our equity and inclusion enrichment training. I'm going to turn our attention to Marisa, to start us off; I'm sorry, I should say Marisa Hamamoto, to start us off with self introductions. Marisa? - Hello, thank you so much, Shajira, for an introduction. My name is Marisa Hamamoto, I use she/her pronouns. Quick visual description, I'm an East Asian woman, with black, long black hair. I am wearing a blue shirt. I am sitting on a pink coach. And in the background, is a portrait of me, and my wheelchair dance partner, Delco, dancing together. So I'm the Founder of Infinite Flow. Which is a dance company, a professional dance company, that employers dancers with, and without, disabilities, with intersectional diverse identities. And our mission is to use dance as a catalyst to promote inclusion and dismantle biases. I, myself, am a stroke survivor. And I also have a couple of invisible disabilities, which include PTSD, and I was just diagnosed literally, two months ago, with level one autism. And I'm sure I'll talk about neuro diversity more as the discussion goes. But just so you have a little bit sense of what Infinite Flow, my dance company is, I'm going to share an 80 second video of our work. And, it's audio-described, so if for anyone who needs that, it's described. Give me a moment. - [Narrator] A woman sits on a man in a wheelchair's lap. They move their arms in sync. A man in a wheelchair lifts one wheel up from the ground, as he a woman to the floor. A man in a wheelchair lays on the floor, and holds the knee of a man with a prosthetic leg doing a headstand. A group of dancers, both standing and in wheelchairs, dance. The dancers in wheelchairs pop wheelies. A standing dancer hugs and rests his head on a man in a wheelchair's shoulder. A standing dancer lays down on the shoulders of a man in a wheelchair. A standing dancer dips a woman in a wheelchair. A standing dancer flips over a man in a wheelchair's shoulder. A man wearing a shirt with the words "Proud to be Deaf," swings his arms back and forth. A flash mob dances in sync in front of people holding up signs that spell "#Infinite Inclusion." A woman in a wheelchair lays across a man in a wheelchair as he spins. In throughout the middle of the dance circle, dancers in wheelchairs form a dance circle. A man wheels into the center, and spins. Kids, both standing and in wheelchairs dance. A girl lays across a girl on a wheelchair and stretches out her arm. A boy in a a glowing room, gets out of his wheelchair, and walks on his head, following a girl doing the worm. A group of dancers on a stage raise their arms. A standing dancer spins around a man in a wheelchair as he picks up one of this wheels. She holds his hand. They both hold his wheel. A logo appears, "infinite flow dance." - So, thank you so much for having me. - That's awesome. Thank you so much, Marisa for showing, sharing that with the team. I am going to now call on Miss Karen, also known as K Pleasant, to introduce herself. - Hi, I'm K Pleasant. And, I'm the Founder of Cerebral Palsy Positive. Which is a 501C3, that supplements the transportation cost, or pays the telehealth co-pays for adults with CP to get to centers that provide healthcare for adults with CP. Because traditionally, everything has been focused on children. When CP is a life-long condition, so there needs to be monitoring after you age out of the children's hospital, to make sure that everyone can live a productive life. And, no one started really looking at it until 2014. So I founded the non-profit to help that process along. - Thank you so much, K, for one, bridging the gap and bringing awareness around the changes from adolescent care to adult care with people who have CP. And, last but not least, we have Javier Robles. And he will introduce himself. - Thank you, Shajira. My name is Javier Robles. I am a professor at Rutgers University. I teach in the and Health Department. I'm also the President of the Latino Action Network of New Jersey, and the New Jersey Disability Action Committee. Which is a group of advocates, parents and individuals with disabilities that came about because of the COVID-19 pandemic, and would be so happening to people with disabilities in our state. So, I'm glad to be here. My pronouns, Jeff, I forget are he/him/his, and I am a Latino male with salt and pepper hair, and a pink and white shirt. Thank you. - Well, I'm really happy that all of our presenters are here. And with that, I really want to just jump in to some of the questions. So the first question is two parts. And I'm gonna ask for, since you were just speaking, Javier, for you to kick us off with answering. Across all aspects of your life, what do you find most fulfilling, or advantageous about your intersecting identities. And then, what do you find most challenging? - Good question. So, what I find most fulfilling is, being Puerto Rican, first of all. Being a person from a Latino background, and my culture, and the people I grew up with and live. Obviously, teaching is very fulfilling for me, because I get to interact on a number of levels, both as faculty here, but also with the student, and making sure that they understand disability from a different perspective that they may not get from other professors, or other educators. So I think a lot of the work that I do with other people with disabilities, with intersectionality in terms of making sure that they understand advocacy, and that they can be great advocates for themself, I think is fulfilling for me, as well. - Marisa? - Yes, great questions. So I am fourth-generation Japanese America. I am bilingual and bi-culture, which is actually quite unusual for a fourth-generation Japanese American. For Japanese, a lot of Japanese Americans, language gets lost, language and culture kind of, I don't think culture. Language definitely gets lost as generation goes. And so even with that disability piece, as an ethnically Japanese person, I don't quite fit the box. So in one way, in America, I'm not American enough. In Japan, I'm not Japanese enough. Yet at the same time, kind of similar to Javier, I have a lot of pride in being Japanese. I'm very, I love my culture, both the American culture and the Japanese culture. And with the disability piece, let me just say, I had a stroke when I was 24. I was diagnosed with my two invisible disabilities, PTSD and, PTSD and level one autism in my late 30s. And so was taking a step back. Let's just say I'm learning to be proud of my disabilities. I've been doing my work at Infinite Flow for seven years now. And as a stroke survivor, I'll be very honest, I never considered myself disabled. But then, it was during the seven years that I was diagnosed with PTSD, I was diagnosed with level one autism, and these are two invisible disabilities that I've had for most of my life, probably. I'll just say, autism, yes, I was born with it. PTSD I can guess, I'm guessing this happened in my late teens when I had a very traumatic sexual assault incident. But anyways, I think one of my struggles as a disabled person of color, with invisible disabilities, and also going from being a non-disabled ally at the very beginning of building Infinite Flow, to suddenly now being disabled, is you know, within the disability community itself, I was othered as a leader within the disability space. And because I was a non-disabled ally, and here I am, six, seven years later, calling myself disabled. So I'm kind of like, let's just say I'm kind of working through how to identify myself, how to talk about my story now. I've had some hurt around being excluded out of disabled spaced. And so I'm also feeling like, it's kind of time, like kind of get, I don't wanna say get rid of the labels, but instead of trying to separate people that lets do things that bring us together, and that's what I love about dance, because dance is just universal language. And it's really, it really connects all of us together through movement. So anyways, but I am a proud disabled person, and I am very honored to be speaking on this panel, as a disabled person, and I am, I just wanna also mention what I found out, which is something I didn't know five, six years ago, is that 70 to 80% of disabled people have invisible and non-obvious disabilities. And so I have this kind of new voice to advocate, and speak more about invisible disabilities. And as an artistic director of infinite flow, I'm also trying to figure out how to make invisible disabilities more visible through the dance. Because I can't help it, but sometimes when we do media work, film work, they want that obviously visibleably disabled person to be in the cast. They're like, if the disability is not visible, they're like "Oh no, we can't see the disability." But I'm like "Well, let's really think through "what representation is." - Wow, you said so many different things, Marisa. You touched on not fitting into one community. And then, the Japanese community, or the American community. That, the invisible disability. And feeling othered. Just so many things to unpack there, so thank you. K? If you can take a chance at that question. - For the most challenging, I think for me is, I don't really fit into either one of them totally. Because for the disability community, which I don't like that word, I prefer challenging. Because disability focuses too much on the negative. But, that's what's out there these days, so I have to use it. But anyway, it seems like a lot of times I'm not disabled enough, because I don't use any accessible things, no wheelchair, no crutches, or anything like that. And no one really notices it until I become ambulatory. So if people from outside are looking, and they don't know the different types of CP, and how it presents itself, then they'll assume that I shouldn't be there. And then other challenge is, trying to get people to understand that it is a physical disorder. It has no effect on your cognitive abilities. There are some people who have dual disabilities. So, their cognitive may be affected. But, it's not the CP itself. So people like say, you go for an interview. I walk in the door, boom, they have these preconceived ideas of what I can't do. And that is so far off base, it's , I can't get that through to them. And... For the advantages, it really, it really is not a lot on the disability side. I guess like special programs through organizations, where you have to meet these certain criteria to participate. Like when they say "Underserved," or whatever. I fit all those boxes. Because of being African American, a female, and disabled. Until they put an income ceiling on it, then , I'm not longer eligible. But if that's not around, then that's good to go. Because that way, I can explain to people that I meet, what I have to go through, and why they shouldn't have the preconceived ideas that they have. But not explaining it like I'm attacking them, just kind of through regular interaction. And that way, they'll accept it better. - Awesome. You touched on a couple of things, as well. Y'all are doing great. So since you're onscreen already, K, or I should say, Karen. I'm gonna just go to the next question. How do you manage the psychological impact of discrimination you have experienced? - Oh, that's a long one. I've just gotten to the point where I try to just shrug it off. Because, the issue is with their perceptions, it's not me. And nothing that puts me in the realm is something I can change. So, I can't let it get to me. As far as mentally. Because there's nothing that can be done about it. It has to be changed on the other person's side, not on mine. After going through times when, like through some of my positions, I was expected to dumb down. I can't do that. My brain doesn't let me do that. And for me to have to do that to pacify someone else, no. I'm sorry if you have that perception, but I'm not changing who I am. If I could, but like I said, my brain won't let me do that. And then, if I've been used as a scapegoat, in a couple of situations where it seems like you know how people fragmentize and they want certain people in certain positions. So they think they can just railroad me, and I'm gonna bow down and give in, and say, okay, you can have mine, or whatever. So it's just been a lot over the years. And I am so happy that now that I founded the non-profit, I don't have to deal with that any more. I'm my own boss. So, it's a relief, even though I didn't, I didn't let it get to me mentally, but just having to go through that. And going to work out every day, or every other day is what kept me going. You know, to make it through that kind of craziness. - You said a lot of great things. In regards to, it's not for you to change, it's not for you to get the concept to understand. It's for others to change their perspective and their thoughts. So, that was really great to hear. I'm going to ask Javier, if you can jump in and answer this question. - Sure, just give me the question one more time. - That's good, I'll do just that. How do you manage the psychological impact of the discrimination you have experienced, either in your personal life, or just definitely in the work environment? - I think, for me, it depends on the level of discrimination that I'm experiencing, would depend on how I'd personally manage it. I don't technically believe in giving people a pass just because they don't understand disabilities. I think that while we can educate people, there are instances where education is not gonna be enough, right? So if I get in a situation where I have someone who's discriminating against me, because I have a disability, because they don't either know the law, or care to learn what the law is, then at that level of discrimination, I would say, well, if it's in the office setting, I would go to HR, I would maybe go to one of the lawyers, depending on which job I would be at. If it's in a public setting, or if it's in a setting where the government has to offer you a service, and someone within that system, is discriminating against you, then I would see what that system would offer me, in terms of fixing the situation. I don't like leaving a situation where I leave, the person didn't get educated any. Either because I spoke to them, or because of, I filed a complaint against them, or whatever. And, I don't file complaints just to file complaints. But I think when someone does that, what's gonna happen is that, there's gonna be another person behind me, and they're gonna run into that same person. And that person is gonna do the same to them. So I think, I have responsibility as a person with the disability to at least do the best I can to train, or at least educate people about disability rights, to educate them. That people in the disability community have the same right the equity, and non-discrimination, as every other group. I obviously work a lot with the Latino groups. And I would do the same thing as a Latino. So it's not something that I shied away from. I don't have a problem telling someone how I feel. I have a service dog, so a few times I've gone into a restaurant, or a store, and you have someone come up to say, "Well, you can't have a dog here." So, that's an education moment for me. I don't view that person as someone that I should be like, well, this person, I'm gonna sue this person, right? To me, that's not a level that I need to do with that, because all I have to do is say "Hey, this is the APA," or what the New Jersey law says about service dogs. And that's enough to let them know, oh, okay. And most people, I would say 99.9% of the time, get it. As opposed to, another instance, where I feel like the person was overtly discriminatory. Really didn't get it after I explained it to them. That's just my person feeling against, every other person with a disability is different. We've all had different challenges, and different experiences. Some people may not feel that is something they wanna do. And that's totally their choice. But from my perspective, at least. Is that good? Okay. - That's perfect. All right, Marisa, same question. - Yeah, thank you so much Javier and K, for sharing. So for me, in regards to discrimination, a lot of my discrimination is actually as a Asian American. And I just wanna also just voice out here, that I am just one single disabled Asian American. I don't represent the entire Asian American race here. So just take my stories as just one voice. And that we are all different, just like every single person with a disability, have a very different lived experience. So in regards to me, as a professional dancer with, that's East Asian, I've been told like for example, here in L.A., that "Oh, you're Asian American, "you don't fit the role of a ballroom salsa dancer, "or a ballet dancer, you just don't fit that role." I've been told that multiple times. And I received a lot of racial discrimination. What's interesting is that as a person with an invisible disability, I've encountered discrimination in a very different regard with not having a disability that you can see. Oh, we don't want, we need to be able to see the disability, if we're gonna, for that, for it to count as representation. And then, I have to kind of educate myself. I will also admit, Infinite Flow currently is a dance company with a troop of, how many people do I have on my roster? I kind of slightly shift, 15 dancers. But you know, dancers of all types of disabilities. We got wheelchair users, amputees, blind, deaf, neuro diversity, intellectual disability, dancers that have multi, different. There are a few different disabilities, chronic illnesses. So everyone has very different access needs. And I also have dancers who are non-disabled, who also have their needs. And we have all access needs at the end of the day. But anyways, I also have a lot of what I call, ally-ship fatigue, if that's a term that's out there. In which I am constantly advocating for access needs for everyone. In whether it's fighting to get an interpreter at an event, or saying, "Hey, there's no ramp onto that stage. "How is my wheelchair dancer gonna get up there?" "Oh, can you just carry up?" I'm like "No! No, no, no, please." So but again, where it's very disheartening is when, and I think the worse case scenario in regards to kind of like something that we consistently encountered is, dance studios that say that they're ADA compliant, don't let us, that don't let us rent their space. Because they don't want wheelchairs on their dance floors, it's just too precious. And because I don't, I'm not the wheelchair user, when I have to advocate, it's like they don't really listen. And then when I take a wheelchair dancer with me saying, "Look, she really cannot walk, she has to use this device." They're like "Oh." You know? And so, sometimes I fall into these loops of feeling like I don't matter, my voice matters. And I think that's something that, not just disabled people, but I think we all at some point, feel like, "Oh, is anyone listening to me? Does my voice matter?" And so, to answer your question about how do is psychologically deal with all of this? I will say my biggest tool for all of this is to move my body with joy. I'm a dancer, I'm also a pandemic born roller skater. I've been roller skating for a little bit over a year. But I move my body with joy. I put myself in that zone. Where I am just flowing. I'm not thinking about anything else, except for moving my body. And in the roller skating case, not falling on my butt. But anyways, and this is why I created Infinite Flow. In a way, if we could all move with flow together, it creates, we can flow together. The other piece of this is, each of us are born with a unique gift. And we're born with it, and some of the gifts and talents are developed during our lifetime. And I truly believe that each of us are called to use these gifts to change the world, and contribute to making difference in the world. In my case, often times your, the most painful things in your life actually lead to your purpose. So in my case, it was this sense of not fitting the box, not fitting in, being excluded, being rejected. And so what did I do? I created Infinite Flow. In which, I basically created a microcosm of the just inclusive world that I wanna see. And so, part of, I think the way I cope with a lot of anger is well, I ask myself "What can I do now with the resources "I have right now, to start making change? "In the community right in front of me?" And so anyways, that's one of the manifestations of that has been Infinite Flow. And I'm constantly thinking "Okay, how can I take this microcosm here into a macrocosm, globally. That's something I'm kind of working, I'm going through a phase of re-strategy right now. But I think we can all use the gifts that we have to start creating the world that we wanna see around us. And even if it's just within your own sphere, within your own team, within your own community, like that energy, or that shift, is going to ripple out slowly if you keep doing it. - Awesome, thank you. You have to create your own little world that you wanna see, and I really like that you said that. That's amazing, if we all just did that with joy and happiness, and to see people for who they are, period, and the gifts that they have, we'll do amazing things. I think this might just be the last question in regards to time, 'cause I definitely want the staff to have time to do the Q&A. Why is it important, or why is understanding intersectionality crucial for our staff to consider, when doing their work? And Marisa, since you're already pinned, I would like you to start off on answering that question. - I think, sorry, I just lost my thought for a moment here. What I wanna say to this is that, each person's lived experiences is different. And so, putting one type of disability, for example, putting CP into one box, putting neuro diversity into one box, that's not quite what it is. You might have two people with very similar diagnoses, similar age, similar, a lot of things, they might have very different lived experiences. And I think we need to just, and I think you know when I know that, often times when we talk about intersectionality, we're thinking about disability times race, disability times race, times wherever you are in the region. We start to kind of put people, again, kind of in boxes, and see where that intersects. But even in doing so, just know that, even if you encounter someone like myself with very similar identities, our lived experiences are going to be different. And that's it, that's all that we wanna really think about. But I also wanna say, there is definitely, when we think about historically marginalized people, so if we're talking about the intersection between disability, people of color, you know, income status, education. If we start really kind of going into the historically margins, and where that intersects, yes, we are going start to see some patterns, as well. And it's where we do wanna also acknowledge that we need to uplift those at the margins first. Not last, but first. And I'll also say, I spend, often times within my colleagues that are also disability leaders, social impact leaders, we also really often times talk about how much it's important to also acknowledge each of our privileges that we have. And no matter how much your intersectional identities may be the most historically marginalized, the marginalized, we all still have our privileges, and we can sometimes, we are the ones that are, encountered discrimination, and need the support. But sometimes, we are also in the position to be the ally. And so, I'm here to just say that, sometimes I have to advocate for myself, but I'm also here to do everything I can to be an ally, when it's called for me to be an ally. - Thank you, Marisa. I'm gonna say the question again, I'm gonna go to Javier. Why is understanding intersectionality crucial for our staff to consider when doing their work from your perspective? - It's a great question. Well, I mean, from my perspective, and I think from a number of perspectives, including the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and a number of other national groups, who have put intersectionality as one of the key issues in making sure that there is equity across a lot of different issues, but definitely around health, health equity, wealth equity. So the COVID pandemic was instructive to the nation, and our states, in particular. Around the issue of intersectionality. And how really understanding intersectionality, not only effects the way we treat people in the health system, but it also effects the way that we treat people in our jobs, in businesses. And the fact that we didn't know as much as we know today about intersectionality, especially when it comes to disabilities. It's sad, but because we didn't know that much, we also saw how many people we lost due to the COVID-19 pandemic. When you think about intersectionality in health, and people with disabilities, we know that people with disabilities are not encouraged to exercise, they're not encouraged when they start kindergarten as little babies, to be part of the health system, to join adoptive sports, or other sports, that create healthy bodies, and healthy minds. So by the time they graduate high school, a lot of them may be unhealthy, a lot of them may have these secondary conditions that we saw during COVID. And a lot of these individuals tend to be from marginalized communities, African American, Latino, poor people, poor women. So all these groups were the groups that were most effected, especially individuals within the NDI, ID, and DD communities. Who were overwhelmingly affected by these intersectionalities. So intersectionality to some just means, well you know, there's a person, and they happen to be a woman who's African American, who lives in Newark, New Jersey, and all these other things. But the reality is, if you just look at that demographic alone, that woman from Newark, New Jersey, who's African American, and maybe has a disability, is more likely to die from COVID-19, than any other group. So, intersectionality at work may be a little different. But I would say to all the HR people, and I would say to all the people who work with these intersectional communities, that you're dealing with a person who has a lot going on. And who has been historically discriminated against, who has been historically oppressed. We're not talking about hey, this person just woke up one day, and they were in an intersectional community. No, we're talking about marginalized communities of African Americans, as an example, who have lived in red lined districts for a long time. And because of that historical oppression, now tend to be, not going, or graduating from college, not receiving an education, not making as much money as their like counterparts. So, I know these are difficult conversations to have, and I have them with my students all the time, but they are important conversations, especially in the work setting. Where we want everyone to be equal when you get to the job. But when that person goes home, they're not equal, they're struggling to make ends meet. They live in a neighborhood that's not the neighborhood you come from. So, anyway, this is a question that I could probably talk a lot about, so I'll just stop. - Thank you, Javier. - Sure. - Karen, do you need me to say the question, or you have it? - I've got it right here. - Perfect. - To me it's kind of simple. It's like a recipe, every component is a piece of who the person is. So, you have to understand each portion of the intersectionality to understand a person as a whole. So you take into consideration all the different aspects, and like Marisa said, everyone's lived experiences are different. So like with CP, as from birth. So, this is the only life you've known. So you can't speak on anything outside of that, 'cause you never known it, as quote "A normal person," as they say. So, and I know it's difficult, 'cause the person that is trying to understand, it's gonna be hard for them to comprehend. So, they'll just have to listen, because they haven't been in our shoes. So, they'll just have to kind of listen, and not have any preconceived ideas, just have open mind when you come to it. But you have to consider each piece. You can't dismiss anything. That's it. - Thank you, K. All right, so I just wanna say thank you all for just being so transparent, open, and sharing your perspectives with the team. At this time, I'm gonna ask my team members here at NDI to type some of their questions that they may have in the chat, and if you are asking the entire panel, or someone specifically, to please indicate that as well. I think we'll just wait about a minute, or so, so we can get some of those questions in. Thank you. I guess if no one has an actual question, if you have a statement, okay, I see Nancy's, that she did, I see, Nancy. Okay. So Nancy- - I type slow. - I was just, I was gonna say, I'm just wondering, Maria, what do you mean by other identities? - Sorry, it took me a second. - No, I was thinking about how you've been talking about like the other components of a person, right? So people of color, or religion, or class, those kinds of things. So, I'm thinking, this group, right? They're are disability advocacy organizations. So, they're thinking first, disability, disability. So is there any advice you have to say, how can we make sure, like so we can remind ourselves in doing the work, like, let's make sure we consider all these other components to that community. - Well, I always tell companies, corporations, organizations, first of all, to look inward, right? What does my company, what does my corporation, what does my organization look like, right? And do we look like the people that we're serving, right? If we are serving in an urban area where maybe we're serving Latinos with disabilities, or African Americans with disabilities, or whatever group, whatever our target group is, does our group at least look somewhat like that? Because it's difficult to sit in a board room, or in a meeting room, and talk about people when you don't have that lived experience that they have. When you don't understand where they're coming from. It's difficult for a group of people who don't, and I'm not saying this is you guys at all, but for a group that doesn't hire people with disabilities, who then goes out and works with people with disabilities, expects to really understand those needs. So I think that's primary. And if you don't do that, or your budget, let's say it's a small budget, you got a few people you can only hire, then work with independent living centers, work with groups like Marisa, and groups like K's, who already are in the field of disabilities, and seek them out for advice, and put them on your boards, and things like that. I mean, that's what I would do. - Thank you. I'm gonna just ask, I guess it just makes it easier, Nancy, if you could just unmute yourself and ask the panel your question, I think that might just be easier. - Sure, I think I finally got in there. First of all, thank you all so very much, greatly appreciate it. So I think many of us, probably all of us can say that these conversations are so long overdue. And we finally have a focus now on DEIA. Not that we didn't always. But it's more in the forefront than we've ever seen before, I think, at least in my lifetime. And I'm just wondering if y'all are feeling the same. Because you're coming at it from a different angle. So do you feel that there are more DEIA initiatives out there, and that people are talking about it more? And if so, how can we keep it going, and expand on it? And that's pretty much to any panel member who might have a comment. - I'll speak a little bit. So, I'll say, as Javier actually had mentioned, definitely hiring those who have quote, unquote, intersectional disabled identities as a start. But really partnering with groups like K and me. It's really building true partnerships. Not just, and when I say partnerships, not like, "Oh hey, can we pick your brain for free?" We're not talking about that type of partnerships. But really like putting resources and heads together, saying how can we use our, use what we have together to bring the positive change that we wanna see? How can we do something together that we can't do alone? Really build real alliances, and not just performative, put the logo, put Infinite Flow's logo on the website. But really kind of build alliances. I think I just also wanna mention, as someone who's kind of gone from non-disabled, to stroke survivor, to then the now disabled, but was disabled from birth, it's this whole like, sometimes we get very caught up in who's serving who. But, we're kind of all serving each other in way. But again, if we start with serving the most historically marginalized, that ends up serving everyone. And I don't wanna say it, I don't wanna reduce it down that simpling. But I think one I'll say is, really build alliances, partnerships, not in a performative way, I can smell it when I get an email that, from an organization that just wants to use our name, use our video, use my credibility, just to make themselves look good, or some celebrity that comes in wanting to be just a face. I'm like "No, get out of here." We can smell the performativeness. And so, but really, we are all grass roots activists, and organizers on this panel. So, that's the approach to kind of take, real relationships. - In other words, be authentic, don't just use me. I get that, I hear you. - Thank you. - And Laura, you put a really great question in the chat, feel free to ask the panel. - Yeah, I'd like to say ditto to Nancy, So I'll be first to say to Shajira, thank you for putting this together. Thank all three of you for your transparency, your candidness, and your willingness, to sit and share from your heart, and your experiences. I know as Nancy said, a lot of our work, we are intentionally moving in this direction. And one of our large projects is going to have, and it's a large project with the Department of Labor, a really large equity focus. So for me, this short time has been so informative, but again, you willingly come to a table, or come to a presentation, and open yourselves up. How, if this is not the first time, and you've done this before, what is your experience? And I think, Marissa, I liked what you said. How do you feel when you walk away from it? Do you feel heard? Do you feel like this might be contributing to kind of moving the needle? I guess I'll stop with that. 'Cause anybody. But I would want, so it's really how do you walk away from this opportunity, this experience? Sorry, I'm getting a cold. - I just wanted to say, Marisa, I'm so glad you made that statement, about how you can smell when something's sort of inauthentic. Because I struggle sometimes with this conversation with the whole concept of tokenism. Like everyone says, "Oh, we have to have this diverse board." And to me, it's like a given. If you're, when I'm working with, in previous positions before NDI, it's like, well of course we have to have a diverse board. Because we represent diverse communities. And so, and then I come to NDI, where it's like same thing, it's so nice to be surrounded by people who think that way. But, I appreciate this conversation so much, because hearing y'all talk that, you can sense when somebody's being inauthentic. When they can sense that somebody is saying, "Oh, well, we need to have this person on a panel," or, "We need to have this person on board, or on a staff." Or, whatever the case might be. Because, you gotta check off a box. Where, I think most of us, are genuinely want this, because that's the work that we do. And so, it's such a, I struggle with it sometimes, because I hear the noise on the outside. - Yeah, Kish, I'm gonna respond to you, and then to Laura. So, this is, you're bringing up a really good point. And here is, this is now, this is just based on my experience. Infinite Flow, kind of also, in a way started off as checking boxes. But, here's the difference, I didn't leave it there. I didn't leave it there as "Oh, I have," Infinite Flow started off as a wheelchair dance company, then it expanded into something bigger and brighter. But, I didn't end it at, oh, I got a wheelchair dancer, I got a blind dancer, I got a deaf dancer, I didn't end it there. That was the very, very beginning. And I knew that this was going to be a work in progress. And so sometimes, yeah. This might be contrary to what's spoken out there. But you know, yeah, sometimes we do need to check the box, but don't leave it there, don't leave it there. That's just the first step out of a thousand that you're gonna be taking. So that's my, that's a little bit of my experience about that. And then, Laura, just to kind of, you asked about how do I feel about walking away from these panels, in which I kind of open myself up. I come prepared with a couple of bullet points, but then I just kind of let myself kind of flow, and try to be present, try to say things, I don't say things that are boiling inside of me in the moment. I'll say that my thing is, we can talk all day, but we gotta take action to make change. And so for me, I can't force others to take action. But I will lead by example, by taking action. And so for me, after any panel conversation like this, I have as much as all of you might have a takeaway, I usually have a takeaway from myself, and I usually say okay, what did I learn through being a voice, or contributing a voice? But also being a part of a wonderful panel, and listening to all the conversations and the questions. What's one small action that I can take that will move the needle forward? So again, we gotta like, we can talk all day, but we gotta like somehow take action, move the needle. - Thank you, Marisa. Nicki, you have a really great question in the chat. Do you mind sharing that with the group? Did I lose you, Nicki? - No I just, I use for audio. And the laptop for visual. And so, I was unmuting myself from the wrong device. Okay, oh, I tried to, , and then I turned it off again. Okay, so it's kind of a long question, but we have a lot of small business projects, and we are working with a very wide variety of small business owners. All of who have disabilities. And actually, a much higher proportion of them are also at that intersectionality of race, ethnicity and gender. And really, I would say probably 90 plus percent of them, have discussed with us how they are experiencing both ableism, and other discrimination, kind of multi-faceted, by the fact that they are a business owner, both with a disability, and with other underserved ethnic minority. And that sort of the combination really had lead to a lot of sort of biases, and thought processes, and perceptions that they've experienced, that their business is subpar, or less than, or their products, or services are not as good as someone who's able-bodied, or a white male, or whatever. And so I was just wondering if you had any insight around that for us as staff to sort of support some of that. Or, ways to maybe mitigate, or we have a lot of partners doing a lot of awareness, things like that. But if you had any other ideas. And then also, access to capital is huge. proceed to access capital, again with that intersectionality. So, just any thoughts around any of that, really. - Okay, I'll take a stab at that. And I'll come back to your question, Nicki, in a second. But I did want to go back to one of the previous questions in terms of why is DEI in the space right now, and why are we having these conversations? And I think a lot of that has to do with Black Lives Matter movement across the United States. And the fact that corporations, I hope, including non-profits to some extend, are starting to wake up to the fact that we have all these intersectionality issues, and yet, we haven't even addressed them at the most basic, and most fundamental place, which is our workplace, our offices. We really don't have the luxury of sitting back and not talking about these issues. And we have to be comfortable letting our employees, and those who work with us, and for us, talk about these issues, and really be part of these issues. So getting back to your question, Nicki, really quick, and I know we don't have much time. I think a lot, and historically, a lot of people with disabilities have internalized that ableism, so they've come to believe what society has said, which is people with disabilities are less than, the products that they produce aren't great. And we, especially in the areas that we work in, we have to know that, that we have to work harder to ensure that they feel like they're valued. That they feel like their products are valued. We don't invest in individuals with disabilities. We don't invest in businesses owned by people with disabilities, and why is that? When we pour money lots of times needlessly into all these other businesses, that when you look at their quality of work, I'm like, well, I would rather buy from someone with a disability than some of this crap out here. So, I think we need to do a better job at making sure that they feel valued, that they understand their worth. So, that's just my two cents. - Awesome. Thank you so much, Javier. Thank you so much, Karen "K" Pleasant. Thank you so much, Marisa Hamamoto for being here with us today. NDI Team, I hope you gained a lot from this conversation with the panelists today, and I hope everyone has a good rest of their day. That concludes our panel discussion. Again, I can't say thank you again to our panelists, you did an amazing job, and I'm sure there was a lot that the staff can take away to help their work. Have a great day, everyone. - Thank you for inviting us. - Anytime. - Thank you. - Bye-bye.